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Root Note Not Saving

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  • #16
    Setting the root note with the blackbox does not work for me either. I proceed exactly like it is shown in the video regarding multisamples but when I load the sample again the root note information is gone.

    Sample Robot works very well for this indeed.


    • #17
      Make sure to save the WAV file (not just the preset) when setting root notes.

      save the preset to save that root note in that preset only.
      save the WAV file to save that root note every time you use that wav file.


      • #18
        I know, that is exactly what I did.


        • Steve
          Steve commented
          Editing a comment
          were you using your own wav file or stock content?

        • Morientes
          Morientes commented
          Editing a comment
          It does not work with extern samples, not with resampled sounds (with BB) and not with sounds from stock content.

          Maybe helpful: When I try to change the existing root note of a sample (stock content), save it and load the sample again, it says "root note none". So saving a sample with a new root note changes something, but there is no readable root note information anymore!

      • #19

        I'm having the exact same issue as everyone else here. To save time, since these questions seem to come up repeatedly, I’ll post these answers first:
        • I'm saving the root note of the WAV file(s) in Blackbox. I’m also saving the preset. When I create a brand new preset and load the previously saved WAV with root note defined, it always defaults to C2 on the keyboard and Pad Note shows "Default."
        • I'm using my own samples made with BB auto-sampling and older samples I've made, but I've also tried using the factory content to no avail; all samples have the same problem.
        • I'm currently running 1.7.2 firmware but had the same issue with 1.6.5.
        • I'm using a 256GB SanDisk Ultra microSDXC UHS-I C10 A1 card as recommended in this thread.
        • The SD card is formatted using SD Card Formatter on a Mac.
        • I have tried rebooting BB as well as reinstalling the firmware.
        • I have not tried reformatting a brand new card or reformatting the existing card.
        • Here is the preset ZIP that demonstrates the problem.
        I opened the WAV files from BB in a hex editor and this is what I've found:
        • Samples generated using BB auto-sampling have root note data in the last few bytes of the file. This appears after the “inst” (69 6E 73 74) chunk. For example, the hex for a note sampled at C#2 is 0x0D and D2 is 0x0E (root notes 13 and 14, respectively). These bytes can be changed to set a new root note, like 0x18 for C3 (root note 24).
        • Samples saved in BB with root note data do not appear to have this additional WAV data included. In other words, samples that were not created using BB auto-sampling appear to leave out the root note (inst) data, even after saving a new WAV file with a defined root note within BB.
        • Further testing is needed and I probably have some info wrong here, but I would like to build a program that does this work for us. So…
        Questions for Steve, Aaron, Christine, et al:
        • Can you share with us the WAV data formatting in BB? Something like this table would be extremely useful to us.
        • While I appreciate the regular suggestion from 1010 to use Sample Robot, it costs $200-300 and this is money most artists do not have. If you can share the WAV data format we can build our own tools to save root note and other relevant data with our files. Something like this documentation of the ACID format (6th post) would be extremely useful to many BB users. I guess this goes back to the points made in the Can We Help? thread.
        • In the 2 options explained in this thread, can you tell us which option takes priority? In other words, if a WAV file has relevant root note tags, will that override the alphabetization of the file name when loading the sample(s)? Or some variation thereof?
        • Can the BB manual be updated to reflect the implemented changes to auto-sampling, file name conventions, etc? I know 1010 has expressed a lack of interest in keeping this manual updated due to the difficulty of it, but it would be very helpful to not require users to navigate two manuals for two different products (Blackbox and Bitbox) to use one device.
        Thanks for your help. I love the Blackbox and want to see it improve.


      • #20
        Hey all,
        An update from my side.
        I've now bought sample robot, although I bought the cheaper (Korg/ Wav) version as you only need the wav file export function if Blackbox is your primary sampler.
        After some experimentation I can add some more evidence and experience to the debugging activity
        • Sample Robot definitely works well regarding the writing of root note information. You map files to the piano keyboard, export wav files for the project, and you get a folder full of nicely named files with root note info all Blackbox ready. I've not looked into anything other than simple root notes yet (like looping, slicing, or tempo) but will report back when I get a chance
        • I've used the Blackbox multisampling function and this to date has always been successful for me, with several sample folders uploaded now to the online library for 1010 users
        • For those who can't get root note writing to work at all, my work around was to use the default alphanumeric ordering of the loading of files. For this to work well, your lowest sample note has to be a C, you need a sample for every note, and your file names must follow a simple convention that cites the midi note number early in the name. Something like "MySample_060_C3" will do it.
        • I tried to write the root notes into all the files on a number of multisample files of different wav formats. Results as follows:
          • 48k, mono, 24 bit - *** Root note write (read?) failure using BB, on some sample files only. Sample Robot works for all samples
          • 44.1k Stereo, 16 bit - BB works, SR works
          • 44.1k mono 16 bit - BB works, SR works
          • 48k stereo 24 bit - BB works, SR works
          • 44.1k stereo, 24 bit - BB works, SR works
        • It was a subset of the samples recorded at 48k mono, 24 bit that I had a problem with today, and these are the same ones I sent over a package for some weeks back. That said, this is far from an exhaustive set of tests for each format, so use this data with caution
        So, for me personally at the moment, this issue is a bit frustrating but not the end of the world. Sample Robot allows me to prepare samples offline with confidence pretty quickly, and multisampling with the Blackbox is a joy so far.
        All that said, the whole "wav metadata" topic is so obtuse and frustating that I can't help wondering how we got here. Information is seemingly nearly impossible to come by, talented amateur coders appear unable to build what must be a simple hex editing application, even pros like the 1010 team appear to struggle. It's all a bit perplexing to say the least.

        Ah well ...... it's nearly Christmas


        • Steve
          Steve commented
          Editing a comment
          thanks for this detail. So you only had issues when saving root notes to 24/48 mono wav files on the blackbox? This is a good clue.

          In terms of loading alphabetically - this is a feature for loading a directory of samples with no root note or no need (percussion). It works well. However, the genius of multisampling is that you do not need to sample every note. You get 64 per pad or 80 per preset, whichever comes first.

      • #21
        Update here too:

        I found this page from a previous century sitting in a dusty corner of the Internet Archive. It documents the WAV file data types and the mess that it is.

        Fascinating stuff! Working with this kind of WAV data is new to me, though I do have a lot of experience working with hex editors for burning custom ROMs for old drum machines like R100/50, TR505/626, etc.

        It appears that the Blackbox uses the 'smpl' chunk to set the root note (not the 'inst' chunk as I said in my previous post). If the Blackbox adheres to those WAV data standards, we could add loop info, etc. That would be killer and I'm excited to see if I can build an app for this. Maybe 1010 can confirm whether Blackbox will support this additional WAV data before I give it a go?

        So, for anyone who is looking for a workaround for adding root note data that does not require Sample Robot or other paid software, you can simply do it with a free hex editor (I use Hex Fiend). Of course this will be a pain if you have a huge batch of samples, but maybe it will get you through until we can build our own tool.

        Below is the breakdown of the 'smpl' chunk as it appears to be implemented in Blackbox. And here are a couple of WAV files I made to demonstrate that it works.
        73 6D 70 6C chunkID smpl
        24 00 00 00 chunkSize 36? <-- i might have byte order wrong here
        00 00 00 00 dwManufacturer NA
        00 00 00 00 dwProduct NA
        61 51 00 00 dwSamplePeriod 24913? <-- i might have byte order wrong here
        30 00 00 00 dwMIDIUnityNote 48 <-- this is the byte that sets root note
        00 00 00 00 dwMIDIPitchFraction NA
        00 00 00 00 dwSMPTEFormat NA
        00 00 00 00 dwSMPTEOffset NA
        00 00 00 00 cSampleLoops NA
        If you're not familiar with hexadecimal, you can use a variety of online converters. For example, at this page, enter the MIDI note number you want to set as your root note, then change the 'dwMIDIUnityNote' byte shown in red above (in this case you would change the number 30, which is 48 in hex; you can leave the other 6 zeros alone as they are just a pad). Then paste the whole 'smpl' chunk (just the hex) into the end of your WAV data, save it, bring it into Blackbox, and Barbara's your aunt.
        Last edited by puffycaps; 12-19-2020, 01:17 PM. Reason: Clarifications


      • #22
        Oh and one favor to ask: Would anyone be willing to share a sample produced in Sample Robot that has WAV data like root note, loop points, etc. saved? This will help me better understand the format and perhaps reverse engineer it to create a tool of our own.


        • #23
          Solved for me in 1.7.3 - Root note is saving now!


          • #24
            Just got BB today, immediately updated to 1.7.F and having the same problem as detailed above. Im using 24/48 samples so maybe that is the issue? I have loaded each of my samples to a new pad, set correct root notes, hit "save" and "overwrite"... tried packing the pset, loading a new pset etc. but no avail — sounds are mapped seemingly randomly across the keys. The samples im using are F#0, C1, F#1, C2, etc. etc.


            • Steve
              Steve commented
              Editing a comment
              can you share a preset that is doing this?

            • BucketsOfRain
              BucketsOfRain commented
              Editing a comment
              Hi Steve, I ended up getting it to work by reformatting the samples to 44.1khz/16 bit/stereo as someone mentioned above — i deleted the preset that wasn't working (48khz/24bit/mono) so unfortunately don't have it available to share. Nevertheless, reformatting has worked for me and now I have a great M1 Piano module — all is well.

          • #25
            Try to use 24/28 whenever possible. Glad you got it working.