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Bug: Program changes on unrelated Midi channels ALSO change presets on Blackbox

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  • Bug: Program changes on unrelated Midi channels ALSO change presets on Blackbox

    Edit: Applies to Firmware versions 1.3.6 and 1.4

    It seems the Blackbox is accepting program change messages on ALL Midi channels WHILE PLAYING (even if the Midi channnel is not set on Blackbox in any way) and changes its own presets accordingly. In most cases this happens for Midi channels that had previously (but during the current song) had a program change message sent to them (either on start or while playing).

    Expected behaviour
    Only Program change messages send on the Midi channels set on the "Midi in" page of the "Tools" section (for Pads & Keys) should have the ability to change presets on the Blackbox.

    Observed behaviour
    When sending program change messages from external sequencer to the Midi channel of another Machine more than once while a song is playing, these seem to be "caught" and applied by the Blackbox internally, activating a preset with a number, meant for another device.

    Example
    My drum machine is on Midi ch 11.
    My Blackbox Keys Midi ch is set to "None" and my Pads are set to Midi ch 13
    Additionally I use Midi channels 3 & 14 with the Blackbox.
    I have made sure that no other pads Midi In/Out are set on the Blackbox.
    My Analog Heat is set on Midi ch 15.

    When I load a new track on my sequencer, all program change messages get sent (on Channels 11, 13 & 15) and every device correctly loads their respective preset (Drum machine, Blackbox, Analog Heat).
    While playing, to change from verse to refrain, I apply program changes on Channel 11 and 15 (but NOT on the Blackbox, set to Channel 13, since it's already playing to the correct preset).
    When I send program changes (while the track is playing) on Midi channels that have received program changes before, the Blackbox accepts them and tries to load the correspondinng preset(s).
    This means that mid-song another preset is instantly loaded on the Blackbox, completely disrupting the current track.
    Last edited by mmediacy; 01-15-2020, 06:47 AM.

  • #2
    Thanks very much for this detailed review. You make an excellent point.

    Does anyone feel the box should respond to program changes on the pad specific channels? Or is the tools page Pads and Keys channels enough,

    Comment


    • #3
      For me:
      Tools-Midi Pad Channel: Change PSET
      Tools-Midi Keys Channel: Route thru to selected Pads Midi Out (same behaviour as notes)

      If Midi-In and Mid-Out is set on Pad, route PC thru.

      I would say: handle routing of midi in to midi out for PCs the same way as notes ? Wouldn't that make most sense ? That's what the name midi "channels" suggests.

      Thinking about a concise way, also the currently global Midi CCs may need rethinking.
      I'm used to get the ccs from my controller routed to the currently selected track/part on multitimbral instrument, eg. i set cc49 for filter once on the machine and thats always routed to the currently selected tracks filter. That way i will always have a predefined, fixed mapping, no matter how many pads i use, either new or from older songs. And i will never run out of CCs.
      If i want to have all filters controllable at the same time i can still setup cc49-ch1, cc49-ch2 etc on my external controllers, or use 2 controller keyboards, one on ch1 and one on ch2 (all note, PC, CC will be routed concisely)
      Last edited by Zapman; 01-17-2020, 09:21 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Zapman,

        Originally posted by Zapman View Post
        I would say: handle routing of midi in to midi out for PCs the same way as notes ? Wouldn't that make most sense ? That's what the name midi "channels" suggests.
        I would say you are technically right. However, in regards to the Blackbox there is a case to be made, where notes on a Midi channel should sound on the Blackbox, while all PC messages and unassigned CC's ON THE SAME CHANNEL get passed through. Let me explain:

        In order to have Midi control over Slicers or Multisamples in the Blackbox, each Pad containing them needs to be on its separate Midi In channel (to receive Midi notes and Blackbox-"learned" CC's). But the more external control you want to have, the more Midi channels you have to "sacrifice" to trigger the Blackboxes samples....

        So, to get around this problem I found that I could use the SAME Midi channels already in use on my FX devices (Ventris, AnalogHeat, ..) as "Midi In" channels on the Blackbox, since FX devices / pedals (usually) do not interpret Midi note data. Additionally, they still have plenty of empty CC message slots that can be "learned" by the Blackbox instead. So, a neat way to save Midi channels through sharing :-)

        I know that this is an edge case for people with a full Midi setup (and FX devices that dont interpret Midi notes), BUT:
        If all PC messages on Midi channels used by the Blackbox pads were to be treated like Midi notes (=only passed through if Midi In & Out are set, otherwise received), these "Shared Midi channels" would sadly cease to work :-(

        My proposition in regards to the implementation of PC messages to change presets on the Blackbox:
        On the "Midi In" page in the "Tools" section under "ProgramChange", instead of
        Off | On
        please give us the choice between
        Off | Pads Ch | Keys Ch | Pads & Keys ch | Set Midi ch
        The latter would scroll through a list of Channels 1-16, to be set by the user.
        ALL OTHER PC messages , received on different Midi channels, should be routed to Midi thru.

        Comment


        • #5
          Besides responding to other channels I also noticed it occasionally reboots when receiving program changes.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mmediacy View Post
            My proposition in regards to the implementation of PC messages to change presets on the Blackbox:
            On the "Midi In" page in the "Tools" section under "ProgramChange", instead of
            Off | On
            please give us the choice between
            Off | Pads Ch | Keys Ch | Pads & Keys ch | Set Midi ch
            The latter would scroll through a list of Channels 1-16, to be set by the user.
            ALL OTHER PC messages , received on different Midi channels, should be routed to Midi thru.
            This would be a very very welcome feature.

            During my live shows I have to change presets on at least 6 devices when switching songs. 3 of them are done via PG's, the Blackbox being one of them.
            At the moment the Blackbox needs to be double checked every time I switch songs by going to the pset page cause it may have responded to a PG send to a different channel.

            The Blackbox crashing every now and then when receiving PG's could be caused by me sending several PG's to it at once and on different channels...

            Comment


            • #7
              Aaron would reverting back to a previous firmware version help me out for now or has the Blackbox always responded to PG’s coming from every channel?

              Comment


              • #8
                Ah fixed in the 1.4.1 update! Thanks!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aaron View Post
                  Thanks very much for this detailed review. You make an excellent point.

                  Does anyone feel the box should respond to program changes on the pad specific channels? Or is the tools page Pads and Keys channels enough,
                  I am really surprised that you found this point excellent. In a post that I made long ago (maybe in the feature request thread) I had already spotted and described this exact problem and you didn't really comment or bring the issue forward for discussion!
                  Anyway thanks for implementing the Program changes for people that use midi chains and need to spare some midi channels.
                  I hope that you will consider also the implementation of midi banks (usb-lsb) as I have asked for in the past. I am bringing it up here because maybe this is more popular thread and people might notice.
                  Thanks again for the update.
                  Last edited by kraftf; 02-08-2020, 10:36 PM.

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