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  • #16
    It's fair to say that the sequencing workflow is not the strength of the blackbox. The first several rounds of updates focused on the sampling based on popular demand. That may very well change in the future. Thanks for asking.

    The Novation Circuit Tracks is great and I also love it. I have the previous version as well. It works well with our hardware.

    I appreciate that you believe open source is the answer. We see it differently. Thanks for the discussion.

    Comment


    • jayneural
      jayneural commented
      Editing a comment
      Please bring a tracker sequencer as alt UI with another press on the INFO button while on the piano roll view

      Or a toggle in the SEQ home page that would switch both the global sequences view and the editor to a tracker mode.

      That could make the function a strength, not to mention the cool factor

  • #17
    Could you kindly shed some light as to why you and your team are against going open source? I know you don't "owe" us an explanation but there are evidently quite a few souls here on this board that are very frustrated with the black box and "buy gear on what it can do not what it might be able to do in the future" and "make a wish list thread" is not fair to us if the complaints we are raising are of the simplest nature. I just want to properly be able to browse my library really, or the other guy just wants to properly enter some sequences. There is a lot of brain here on this board and this thread has shown that we are willing to help implement these changes so you can focus on the fancy wishes from them wish list threads (of which we all put in our wishes as well looong ago).

    I am very curious. Do you fear some cheap rip-offs of the the black box appear on the markets due to the available firmware? Do you fear revenue losses due to users manufacturing their own black boxes? Are you fearing the black box suffers reputation if some developer fried his board? Or are you fearing the custom firmware that might appear will even outpace the official builds? Or is it just that the tonality of some participants on this thread does not suit you? If you could help me understand where your concerns lie it be highly appreciated as I and the other users have spend a lot of energy expressing our concerns, but also our love for the black box and so far from your comments I can only read a "Linux is a cancer" kind of attitude. If it is revenue concerns well I don't know what to say but Google is one of the most successful companies in the world selling a product based on open source software entirely. Thanks for your patience and goodwill driving this matter forward.

    Comment


    • #18
      I like open source. Let me call out one project I particularly like, tinyXML. It is a great, compact XML parser that I have used in my past three ventures. I highly recommend it.

      Regarding the business model of 1010music, the closed source model is working for us. It has worked well in my past experience over the last 25 years at Native Instruments, Sound Trends (iOS apps), inMusic, MixMeister, and Microsoft in the Windows division.

      We truly want to make you happy with blackbox. If there is something missing--that you haven't already mentioned--please let us know.

      Comment


      • Painting Silence
        Painting Silence commented
        Editing a comment
        thank you for clarification, Aaron. This is a very reputable history that you have there and I am very impressed by the list of companies you worked for reflecting your epertise and sure a lot of it has led to the design and programming choices of the black box making it the great device it ultimately is (including for me). I thank you for picking up on the debate, that in itself shows that you care about the community and users behind the black box. I think you are also carrying a, let me say, inventors burden? So it is with many novel devices that do things differently, they are usually also met by harsh criticism besides all their innovation. For trailblazers it is hard to satisfy, well.. other trailblazers. I will leave you in peace now with the open source request and thank you for the debate. I still stand by my opinion but of course respect yours. If you ever happen to change your mind, please give us a heads up on this thread, it is never to late to head down another route (fork!). Excited to see where the Black Box is headed in the future!

      • jayneural
        jayneural commented
        Editing a comment
        Aaron, what do you think about the Korg NTS-1/XD/Prologue paradigm ? Opening the FX slots and Pad types only ?

    • #19
      Could you guys just make it so, you know, users are able to program sequences on the thing? Again, here's a perfectly fine solution for proper implementation. I'd ask for one of the most basic other expected functions such as note repeats, but at this point I'd be ecstatic just to be able to enter and take away notes without pulling out my hair.

      Originally posted by breadmachine View Post
      it's hard to program in a pattern. or copying.
      Agreed.

      Comment


      • #20
        Users are able to program sequences on the thing.

        Comment


        • #21
          I suggest for you to reread the post if you took that part literally. Perhaps this helps in clarifying things for you:

          "just to be able to enter and take away notes without pulling out my hair."


          Originally posted by breadmachine View Post
          it's hard to program in a pattern.

          "Agreed."


          Edit: Because I do hate having debates that are hardly worth having, I'll add a more substantive last retort. If the suggestion from 1010 is to "get a stylus", then they should have at very least added one as some kind of attachment to the machine. That's not an issue with uneducated consumers, it's an acknowledgment of having sent out a product that they knew had/has a major handicap (that hasn't been addressed after having been out on the market for two years). At least if one was added to the package they could claim it's a practical design choice.
          Last edited by Sequential Circuits; 07-03-2021, 09:31 PM.

          Comment


          • Georges
            Georges commented
            Editing a comment
            The way I understand bb’s sequencer is that it is meant for comfortable performance recording (quantising is your friend). Entering notes by hand is merely meant for the purpose of editing rather than creating from scratch. Manually entering notes also appears to lack in functionality (eg “glueing” notes) which you get when recording by performance. In this light, the bb does what it should really well.

            The issue with the bb is that there appears to be a missing manual: the current manual tells you what the buttons do (functionality), but it is completely silent on how and when to push them (workflow).
            Last edited by Georges; 07-05-2021, 12:10 PM.

        • #22
          At the risk of stating the obvious, do you realize you can pinch and zoom the sequencer view? It is much easier to eliminate a note when you make it bigger. Please save your hair.

          Comment


          • arteom
            arteom commented
            Editing a comment
            What I'm finding buggy when entering notes is being taken back to the very beginning of a sequence when trying to tap a cell. I do think it a core function, and hope that the issue gets resolved soon. Even beyond that it would be helpful if there was another way to enter/delete notes/pads in a sequence via encoders and buttons. That said I understand the BB main interface is touch, so have learned to work with it as such..

          • shankiphonic
            shankiphonic commented
            Editing a comment
            I haven't thought about this in a while arteom. but it's a thing that changed (not for the better) in 1.7.3.
            Is it still not fixed in 1.7.4?
            https://forum.1010music.com/forum/pr...age4#post19897

          • arteom
            arteom commented
            Editing a comment
            shankiphonic, yeah I'm running 1.7.4 and seeing the issue often as sequences I'm working on start to get populated.

        • #23
          Originally posted by breadmachine View Post

          You say "custom built the OS for these boxes" like that's something special in terms of embedded development.
          And like...the OS is written now. Adding features is going to be much easier that starting something from scratch. C ain't that hard dude
          I did not say special, just unusual (as many platforms are built on existing OSs and platforms), and what is your point? 1010music had a job posting for a developer, if anyone with the skills is interested. I don't understand why there is always a call for making things open source, as if all developers with the skillset are entitled to become cooks in the kitchen. Keeping this closed, means that there is more control by Aaron and the team. They choose what features are rolled out and when and how to manage bugs and provide service to their customers. As soon as you open source, there will be branches and it becomes impossible to manage from a support standpoint. Developers do not always look at things holistically. When I worked in a development company, the developers were not expected to provide customer service or manage relationships with vendors. These are specialized skills, just like development. DevOps is a step in the right direction, but people entering that field from the development side often believe that it just means more automation and containerization and not thinking differently about the ecosystem of product development and release. Personally, I have zero interest in learning software development myself, I just want a stable tool to get creative with and make music.

          Comment


          • Painting Silence
            Painting Silence commented
            Editing a comment
            of course the extra developer is of great help, but so far the issues we had addressed long ago had not seen any care and I dont really see one excluding the other (going open source and keeping official builds simultaniousely). also customer support for custom firmware builds is generally excluded. like literally in every EULA. and also you dont have to learn software development, why would you? how does it affect you if there is a custom fork? just enjoy the official builds but let the people that want to take it to the next level do their thing. win win

        • #24
          Originally posted by sydilaxe View Post
          Keeping this closed, means that there is more control by Aaron and the team. They choose what features are rolled out and when and how to manage bugs and provide service to their customers. As soon as you open source, there will be branches and it becomes impossible to manage from support standpoint.
          Your arguments have been debunked 20 years ago and I invite you to actually look into how open source works for companies!
          In the end it's about giving users more control over their instruments. From a company perspective it is very easy to signal that third-party firmware is not supported.

          Anyway, this discussion is irrelevant because Aaron already said that they're not gonna consider it. Just signals a very 20th century mindset in terms of development. Lots of these companies are also just embarrassed to open their sources because of shoddy code quality. This is speculation of course but I've been a software consultant for the last 15 years and the patterns are usually the same

          Comment


          • sydilaxe
            sydilaxe commented
            Editing a comment
            But we are talking about a hardware platform, not software running on someone's computer. I am all for open source software; however, this is embedded software running on a piece of hardware that a VERY small team needs to support (whether it is a crooked screen or a bad AD converter or bad memory). If someone loads a bad branch and bricks their machine... who deals with it then? Do you think it would be positive for 1010's reputation if they just said, "well, third party firmware is not supported... enjoy the new $600 doorstop you made."

        • #25
          sydilaxe it is not like we are reinventing the wheel here. yes custom firmware for a device is tricky and may brick the device but the people that are interested in this usually know about these dangers and the ones that don't care little about custome firmware and stick to the official releases. like as if there aren't any commercial products running custom firmware?! a lot of times custom android builds offer more security as the community picks up faster on possible bugs and security measures than the big vendors. or take graphics card and cpu overclocking as an example. many hobbiists have successfully fried their processors and gpus but nvidia and amd are still in business last time i checked. they even offer overclocking as a stock option having diversified their portfolio to enthusiasts with K variants of intel i processors allowing for inbuild overclocking. or take my nvidia graphics card as an example. the manufacturer limited the fan speed to 80% max leading to my graphics card frequently shutting down on long render sessions due to overheating. like wtf I had to load a custom firmware to enable 100% fan speed, you joking me? it also upped the clock speeds as a nice gimmick and runs stable stable. the list of successful open source builds (even with or especially with embedded development!) is literally endless and anyone installing a custom firmware, bricking their device and then blaming the manufacturer is an idiot (of which there are some but not enough to touch a companies reputation). Now is your turn of providing counter examples where companies have been held liable or lost their reputation because of some open source fork.. btw the argument of the VERY small team is my main argument of going open source to free up the little resources 1010 has available.

          Comment


          • sydilaxe
            sydilaxe commented
            Editing a comment
            I don't think you are getting my point and seeing it only from a development standpoint. This is fine, but it is creating a one sided argument. I agree with almost everything you are stating; however, calling someone who bricks their device an "idiot" does not help 1010 when that idiot posts all over social media about their experience and creates a PR scenario that the company has to deal with. As for counter examples in the software world where open source has been a risk or detrimental to a company, you only need to look at the list of companies affected by hackers taking advantage of open source to leverage vulnerabilities. There is an interesting list here (and not comprehensive): https://www.natlawreview.com/article...-business-risk

            Regardless of the size of the 1010 team, I respect this as a business decision (not a technical one) and understand why they stand by it and respectfully decline to open source the firmware.

          • Painting Silence
            Painting Silence commented
            Editing a comment
            Thank you much for sharing the article about the dangers of open source. I followed it and find it highly interesting. I definitely agree that open source opens up vulnerabilities otherwise unknown and this is of great danger when it comes to user data and website security. However I don't find this argument applicable in the case of the black box as this is an offline device and no sensitive data is stored on it anyway so which vulnerability are you worried about specifically? As for the PR Desaster of course this is a likely possibility so the user goes raging on socials about how a firmware not officially supported by 1010 destroyed his black box in which case 1010 would argue that it has warned using only official builds. So then a shit storm arises about why dangerous builds are available at all is your fear? Well in this case there could still be open source software but it's distribution limited to a closed community. This community has signed an agreement that it will not hold 1010 liable for buggy open source. I think that might be another option? I do well understand your points thanks again for presenting them. I still think however that the black box will be well below its potential with closed source, which is a shame given its sophisticated design.

          • jayneural
            jayneural commented
            Editing a comment
            If anyone cared about security in a non connected groovebox… it would at least have a password on startup

            They don’t have to open all the source code, they just need to open some hooks to be able to add functionality in the form of plugins/extensions aka shag Korg does with NTS-1/Minilogue XD/Prologue.

        • #26
          I don't have much to add here really other than that I also am a software engineer by trade. I would absolutely, positively LOVE the ability to contribute to the black box firmware in my spare time. I would even go so far to say I would happily pay a reasonable fee for access to an SDK in order to write my own functionality into the firmware for personal use. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe if open source isn't right for 1010music, perhaps there's something in-between where people who love to code and tinker can still do the things they want to do with the box.

          I also appreciate that such a move would require a a large amount of effort to separate the SDK from the overall source code, I guess that depends on the current state of the firmware overall. Just an idea nonetheless ​​​​​​

          Comment


          • Painting Silence
            Painting Silence commented
            Editing a comment
            Possible way to go. That would filter out irresponsible use of the firmware..

        • #27
          Very interesting perspectives for sure. I think another view on music hardware would be to look at these as open or closed systems. I am a huge fan of the Organelle and NTs-1. These are open systems that encourage development and experimentation. They can become whatever the user wants them to be. I look at the Bluebox and Blackbox as closed systems. They are designed for a specific purpose, like a Digitakt or a Mc-707. I see a lot of calls for people to open source the firmware for the 1010 boxes and then being frustrated when they don’t … but very few folks are complaining about Elektron or Roland not doing this. I wonder why the double standard.

          Comment


          • Painting Silence
            Painting Silence commented
            Editing a comment
            i do get your point about open and closed systems, however we are not asking for additional features but rather the improvement of existing ones. I am sure theres quite a few people asking Roland or Elektron for the same matter and trust me there is quite a few things I would like to change on my TR8s as well, but what you should consider as well is that the Black Box is rather software based with very few hardware buttons (unlike the Digitakt or the TR8). This leaves more room for optimization of the firmware.

        • #28
          Originally posted by Aaron View Post
          It's fair to say that the sequencing workflow is not the strength of the blackbox.
          Aaron, you are a true gentleman for entertaining so much criticism with so much class.
          I don't know how you do it.
          The hostility and op-ed criticism of the product on this forum is bumming me out, man.

          Fender Just released a Cory Wong signature Strat.
          If I had to guess, I'd bet that the decision to produce this model was not based on Mr. Wong's incessent pissing and moaning about the fret markers on the Strat.
          More likely, it's that Cory Wong could make any beat up, bent neck pawn shop guitar sound great.

          I suppose if I were mad at the universe for not being born Jacob Collier, or If I hated myself because I knew I spent more time GASsing than I do practicing, then bullying the blackbox might seem like a good coping strategy.

          The sequencing workflow is not the strength of the blackbox?
          The blackbox, with its touchscreen, can capably sequence multiple instruments simultaneously and play itself polyphonically on multiple channels.
          An iPhone is the closest thing I can think of to match a blackbox, and an iPhone costs over $1k, and you'd still need to buy software and adapters to get it on par with the blackbox.
          A 5-inch square, all-in-one instrument & music studio isn't a thing.
          What else is there at this size, and this price-point that can do what the blackbox does?

          What the people calling for open source maybe don't realize, is that you think you'd be able to program the blackbox because the UI is so freaking intuitive.
          "It must be easy!"
          If that were the case, we'd be swimming in blackbox clones by now. Isn't it curious, that with all the good press blackbox has received, that we having seen a BehringerBox clone yet?
          It's because this device is serious, next-level, poop.
          I would have killed to have had this in my teens, (you darn kids)!
          If you're not going to put in the work to learn the blackbox and incorporate into your process, should you really be leaving design notes?

          Comment


          • Painting Silence
            Painting Silence commented
            Editing a comment
            so your point is that we dont spend enough time and working hours with the black box and therefore havent quite figured it out yet, is what you say? how about seeing it the other way round, like we have spend so much time and work with the black box that there are a few elimentory features that just kill our workflow? The Black Box is also quite a young product. Behringer clones mostly popular vintage products. The Black Box, besides its praise, is far from gaining mainstream acceptance. And not taking care of the core features is not helping much in my opinion. Of course the black box is a capable sequencer... nobody has argued otherwise.. but is the black box an easy to use, intuitive sequencer besides its possibilities? A few users would kindly disagree here.. and last.. I would also disagree that the UI is "freaking intuitive". For me the Black Box has one of the steepest learning curves, partly due to its innovative workflow. Sophisticated.. but freaking intuitive?

          • shankiphonic
            shankiphonic commented
            Editing a comment
            I'm afraid my point wasn't clear. I'll try better.
            I trust you wouldn't assert, vigorously, at length, that it's a problem for you that a Fender Jazz Bass doesn't play like a Telecaster. You wouldn't pedantically criticize the engineers at Tama because their snare drums don't thump like their bass drums. And you probably wouldn't assert that Yamaha should publish their hard-earned intellectual property design specifications because you know better than they do how to make their alto sax sound like a vibraphone. I expect you wouldn't criticize Bayer because although their Aspirin product is great for headaches, it doesn't cure toe fungus... because, you know, "medicine".
            Can we agree to that premise?
            If you witnessed such a dialog, you'd likely think: these are absurd claims!

            There is no universally all-conditions-suitable guitar, drum, snow-ski, kitchen knife, bicycle, automobile, vaccine, fishing rod, breath mint, eyeglasses, camera, pencil, or music production tool. Anyone struggling with this idea is going to be unhappy.

            A Ferrari won't cruise over sand dunes like a Jeep. And a Jeep definitely won't turn corners like a Ferrari. It's very easy to understand the relative strengths of a Ferrari and a Jeep.
            The relative strengths of the blackbox are a little more subtle.

            It's up to you, and your time investment and creativity to realize how this instrument supports the practice of your art. It's your prerogative if you want to bemoan what you think the blackbox is lacking in critical functionality. It says more about you than it does about the blackbox.

            Play music.

          • Painting Silence
            Painting Silence commented
            Editing a comment
            I do understand your points, but thanks for clarifying again. While I can follow that a Ferrari is not a lawn mower I think your point of reasoning greatly applies to the examples you have stated below. I wouldn't buy a guitar if I wanted a bass, we can all agree on this and so on. Let me use your examples to clarify my points: if I buy a Jazz Bass, and I think the pick up sounds badly, I am allowed to replace the pick up with something I find more suitable, correct? I can replace the frets, I can redo the paint job, I can adjust the truss rod etc etc. All these things are sort of expected as a Jazz Bass, as great of an instrument it is, usually is not adjusted to my play style straight out of the box. So according to your logic, I would rather bring back the bass and get a different one before making adjustments myself. To come back to the black box, I am sure you read my initial points and the criticism I have with the black box. None of it cries for a different product. Being able to read the file names properly I find essential and I am sorry if you disagree. Being able to pre-listen to midi before importing (or at least remembering the last location so you dont have to browse again) I find essential. If you disagree, I happiliy accept this, but these features are not that hard to implement, trust me. They are just not on 1010s priority list as they are not adding to the "marketing effect" of the black box, in opposition to: Oh it does granular synthesis, oh it does multisampling etc. So whilst these features are great to have too, I have never requested them. In fact this comes closer to transforming a jazz bass into a guitar, whilst I would argue that reading longer file names is more like making sure the jazz bass is usable as intended. Last, and I repeat myself here, a jazz bass is mostly a physical item (as are your other examples) whilst the black box is nothing else than a micro controller with a custom firmware packaged in a touchscreen, a few rotaries and a few ins and outs. This offers great potential to fixing these minor shortcomings as opposed to any of the examples you listed below. I hope I made myself a little clearer now but please feel free to further counter my opinion. this is what discussions are for and I appreciate your input. and of course Id greatly agree with "play music".. thats what we are all here for buddy - but some of us just like to customize their bass to make it the greatest instrument ever made from a personal perspective to fully unleash the individual potential that's in every one of us.

        • #29
          Originally posted by shankiphonic View Post
          I would have killed to have had this in my teens, (you darn kids)
          I didn't really want to pitch in too much in this debate ......but .......

          I'm enough of a dinosaur to remember my first foray into the world of hardware sequencing, Alesis HR16, MMT8, and a juno 106. None of these remain in my possession (sadly).
          Had somebody back then described the Black box to me, I'd have thought I'd wandered onto the set of a Star trek episode.

          Maybe in another 30 years we'll be marvelling at the 1010 Mindbox with brainstem wireless interfacing, AI Mozart note streaming, and a virtual club VR environment workflow. That would be something. For now, I select a preset on the Blackbox and consider myself fortunate

          Just my viewpoint, and yours may vary, but I thought I'd share.
          Peace,

          Comment


          • #30
            I actually just noticed that the name of this thread and its creator author was changed by Aaron .. Sorry if my original thread title had been to radical for you but a heads up had been nice, nonetheless.

            Comment

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