Exporting wav tracks in-place for DAW?

[aljenimago]

Hello, I am new to the bluebox (while not completely new to mixers nor to multitrack recorders). First things first: This little thing is amazing! So much bigger on the inside, The Doctor would say.

Now for my question:

My usual workflow is to record several tracks on an hardware multitrack recorder, transfer the recorded files to the computer and do the final mix in Logic Pro. This works with my Tascam DP24 quite well.

However, the bluebox wav assets appear after import in Logic not “where they were”. Instead, they all start at t=0. (Or, well, wherever I actually drop them to be exact.) This is, of course, especially true if I just records some chunks every now and then in the track.

Please take a look at the illustration attached. It shows the situation on the Bluebox vs. in the DAW in a simplified way.


Is there a way to place the wav files in the DAW timeline properly? I mean of course, other than drag and drop au hazard

FYI: Bluebox firmware 1.1; Mac OS with the latest Logic Pro.

t.i.a.!

best regards
Alex

[aljenimago]

OK, seems not so important for the most of us… so I am curious how do you folks manage this. Any hints?

In the meantime, I have found out that in the file "assets.xml", which sits inside every project folder, start and end time are saved in the code like this:

params trackid="4" trackstarttm="550979" trackendtm="594103"

If a recorded asset starts at time null, it reads, of course,

trackstarttm="0"

instead.

So all I need for now is the unit the "trackstarttm" is measured which. What is it? For obvious reasons, it isn't seconds. So what does the number, in this case, "550979" mean?

regards, Alex

[sirshannon]

I don't have an answer but I have a way to find the answer:
Create a 60 bpm project. Record something starting at 0. Recording something else starting at a specific beat. If you check the numbers you found in the assets.xml file, you should be able to figure it out from there given that each beat will last 1 second so starting on the first beat of the 2nd measure would be the 4 second point of the track.

[aljenimago]

Thank you for your hint. It's getting nerdy, err interesting

I have tried your solution. Math has never been mine, though, so I am afraid to be just as wise as before. :-0 The 2nd "track" is starting at 4.1, which are exactly 12 second in this case. After doing the math, the result was not 42, but 960. Makes (1 Beat == 240 n), while n=blueboxsecretunit. Granted the recording was made at 60 bpm 4/4, which is not always the case.


As I said, mathematics was never my forte, so I am a little bit stuck from this point on. I tried to transfer this template to other tracks – with no success. If you have any further hints or a vital clue about what I'm doing wrong, you're very welcome – thank you i.a.!

[RC Prime]

That leaves you with a few options. 1/320th of a second, 1/320 of a beat, or 150 samples (which is essentially the same as the 1/320s). Try again at a different tempo and you should have your answer.

[virtualpt]

It would be easier if the Bluebox had an export function that would export all tracks with the necessary blank sections so that all tracks could be dropped straight into a Daw at 0 & line up.

[idylmind]

Couldn't you just rename the file after it was recorded with the beat location you started from? ex. "SynthLead 20.1.wav"

[aljenimago]

Couldn't you just rename the file after it was recorded with the beat location you started from? ex. "SynthLead 20.1.wav"

Certainly I could. But what is it supposed to do?

curious greetings, aljen

[idylmind]

Nulling out the .wav to line up at 0 for every recording would make for potentially much larger projects. If 1010 could add some sort of auto-naming suffix to the file pertaining to the punch-in, that would work. I just tested it out by renaming the file, it doesn't take much time to do and totally works. I had to use an "x" rather than a period to denote my bars/beats start point but otherwise, pretty painless.

Having the numbers in the .xml equal milliseconds or samples would be much more useful.

[virtualpt]

I guess that depends on your definition of 'much more useful'. Storage is cheap; for me, it would be much more useful to be able to take files & drop them straight into a DAW rather than having to scan XML & manually lining up each file. I'm also not sure that blanks in wav files increase the size very much at all. If this was an issue then this could be encapsulated in an export function with the full length files being created when required rather than being stored this way.

[RC Prime]

virtualpt, not arguing your point, but silence in uncompressed pcm wav files takes up just as much space as nonsilence. Either way Aljenimago had the right idea, he just chose a value that worked out too neatly for both of the strongest possibilities. A more awkward bpm would have given a more indicative result, it being less likely that 1/beats and 1/samples would both work out to nice round numbers. My bet is that each unit=150 samples.

[jayneural]

They could make it an option. Those who care about the space would set it as it is now and those who need to align the tracks easily would choose the new option.

[idylmind]

Well I mean it would be much more useful in that we currently don't know what the numbers in the XML mean. If they were samples you could at least use that to line your tracks up in your DAW.

RE: spontaneously hitting recording and wanting everything in place in a DAW sounds like you ought to just use a DAW.

[jayneural]

I agree, there should be at least an option / mode to fill with blank at least whatever precedes.

[aljenimago]

RE: spontaneously hitting recording and wanting everything in place in a DAW sounds like you ought to just use a DAW.

DAW and spontaneous? I guess you are kidding me. DAW is the contradiction of spontaneous for me.

As you said, we currently still don't know what the numbers in the XML mean. Does 1010music always keep so much secrecy?

[datagreed]

Oh man, is that how punch-in recording works in the new firmware? I though it would be ore like OP-1.

[kattefjaes]

It would be easier if the Bluebox had an export function that would export all tracks with the necessary blank sections so that all tracks could be dropped straight into a Daw at 0 & line up.

Yep, a proper "export stems" feature like many DAWs and sequencer boxes have- it feels like a bare minimum to be usable. Hit a button to export stems, get a pile of WAVs all the same length, that you can drop onto tracks in Protools or whatever to continue working with them. Heck, even Polyend Tracker manages that, after a fashion.

I came here to check for obvious flaws or facepalms in the Bluebox prior to ordering one. I guess this thread has answered the question for now, the firmware is far from ready for prime time. Thank you lovely forum people!

Back to lugging a laptop with Ableton and an RME interface, I guess

[sirshannon]

Thank you for your hint. It's getting nerdy, err interesting

I have tried your solution. Math has never been mine, though, so I am afraid to be just as wise as before. :-0 The 2nd "track" is starting at 4.1, which are exactly 12 second in this case. After doing the math, the result was not 42, but 960. Makes (1 Beat == 240 n), while n=blueboxsecretunit. Granted the recording was made at 60 bpm 4/4, which is not always the case.


As I said, mathematics was never my forte, so I am a little bit stuck from this point on. I tried to transfer this template to other tracks – with no success. If you have any further hints or a vital clue about what I'm doing wrong, you're very welcome – thank you i.a.!

I don't understand your math here.

You have 3840 as the start time and that is 12 beats or 12 seconds [because 60 bpm]. 3840 / 12 is 320, not 960.

You said "I tried to transfer this template to other tracks – with no success." but I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If you mean the math problem, you should show those other tracks so we can see what you're talking about. Maybe you did the same math problem on other tracks but did it correctly and therefor it didn't match the incorrect math you show above?

You can't really know if you solved this with a single attempt. In your example above, you have at least 4 ways to check the math. 0 for the start time of the "Bluebox 1" track (which of course matches because 0 = 0). 3840 start time for 12 seconds. 30056 end time that you could test against the length of "Bluebox 1". 17688 end time that you could text against the length of "Bluebox 2". Or you could post the lengths of those tracks and we could do the math here.

And like was suggested above, you can do the same thing with a different tempo track. I only suggested using 60 bpm because you wouldn't need to measure in seconds but if you're putting them into your daw, you can get the times and lengths in seconds and do the same math regardless of tempo.

[ibisum]

I've just been bitten by this - had some pretty epic jams, had the Bluebox set up to record stems .. go to import them into a DAW for later fun, and .. well, yeah, no timing information doesn't exactly make these files useful. It was a JAM, how am I supposed to know what time everyones parts sat in the session?

So .. I inspect the asset.xml file .. and well, there are no start/end time parameters in mine. Everything just says 0. What gives? Do I have the unenviable situation of now explaining to my fellow jam members that they have to tell me what they played and when, before we can listen to things? Hmmm...

If there could be *some* feedback on this thread from 1010music about the asset.xml/project.xml contents, maybe some of us could whip up some importers for common DAW's so that this is a no-brainer for folks, going forward .. (I have dibs on REAPER!)

[idylmind]

Did you start recording at different times for all of your inputs while jamming?

[idylmind]

Yes it absolutely syncs easily when you record from the same location.

[idylmind]

In fact if you want to see the power of the Bluebox, check out this video (https://youtu.be/zhuiUU0-Vng). I used it for Stem playback as well as mixing and recording the live elements of the performance. I was able to easily drop those recordings into Pro Tools for a proper mix to sync back with the video. The Bluebox is powerful, there's nothing else quite like it right now.

[aljenimago]

@ Seteef: "I guess if you start overdubbing and comping stuff it would get messy."

I guess you are right. But "overdubbing and comping stuff" is exactly what multitrack recorders like this are usually built for. This was true for Tascam Porta cassette recorders 40 years ago, this is stilly true today for all DAW, even on smartphones, and especially for all dedicated multitrack recorders, of course. For all? Well, there is an exception, they call it "1010 bluebox"…

Seriously: you can punch-in record with the bluebox, you can record multiple/alternative takes, etc. These features are fine; they are neatly implemented, too. But they only make sense if there is a reasonable way to sync them in the postproduction. Otherwise, nothing to write home about.