Sync problem between Squarp Hapax and BlueBox + BlackBox

[steeldust]

When I press Start on the Hapax (Master Clock), mostly either BlueBox or/and BlackBox run with a third of the clock. Sometimes even both devices run with a third of the clock. It's totally random. I figgured that when I press stop on the Hapax and press start right away, then the B-Boxes run correctly. But when I wait a few seconds and then press start, the problem is most likely there.

Here in this example (picture) the BlueBox on the left has the problem, while the BlackBox on the right runs properly.

I once had a very simular problem with a Novation Keystep Pro and the BlackBox which I also had reported here in the forum. After I had replaced the master Clock with the one from a Roland MC 707 (instead of KSP), the Problem was gone.

I believe this must be a Bug in the Boxes (BlackBox/Bluebox) because I never saw something simular with any of my other devices (synthesizers).

I am using all the latest firmware updates.

I am using Midi-DIN for Midi and synchronisation (not USB).

Any solution? Ideas?

[Steve]

Please always share your firmware as a number. "Latest" is ambiguous for this purpose. Make sure your clock master is sending a start + clock. This is the issue with the Arturia KeyStep and KSP. I don't have a Squarp so I am not familiar with the data it sends.

[steeldust]

Usually the 1st thing people ask is "do you have the latest firmware update", so clarify this right away makes kinda sense to me. Blackbox 2.1.5, Bluebox 1.2.7. Should have mentioned that I don't mean beta.

The Hapax does send Start. This must be set up in the synch output settings. Back then when I had the same issue with the KSP and the BlackBox, the KSP was also sending Start. Then I had switched to the MC 707 as the main clock. But now that the Hapax is on board, the sync issue haunts me again.

The Hapax has four Midi-Outputs. Port A-D. One of them (port C) allows to set a "DIN-sync analog clock pulse resolution". Squarp says this is for vintage gear synchronization, like the TR-808. I even tried all the available settings of port C with the BlueBox and BlackBox, but it did not solve the sync issue.

To me it seems that Squarp did some effort to make the midi communication as flexible as possible. For midi out there are 3x DIN, 1x TRS, 2x USB and 4x gate clock outs with all possible speeds. All midis are fully configurable. Even has a built in midi monitor tool. It's a pity that this powerful machine cannot be synched properly with both of the Boxes

[sirshannon]

FWIW, I think this is/was fixed in Bluebox 1.2.14, which is a beta version but doesn't have any more bugs than any release version you've used, as far as I can tell. I've been using it since November and haven't had more issues than normal (so yes, plenty of issues).
I have not installed Bluebox 1.2.15, which is also a beta, (probably! Firmware version info is extremely important when users discuss the bluebox but pretty haphazard when 1010 posts, links, discusses, or names a version).

I don't know if the fix is in the current beta Blackbox firmware, I don't plan on installing it.

[Steve]

In terms of firmware, neither of your versions are actually the latest. We churn out firmware faster than many so "latest" is ambiguous - for our purposes. 2.1.5 is the latest stable release. The KSP does send a start command. But it also sends a pause. Our devices do not respond to pause. In the case of the KSP, it is sometimes possible to send pause accidentally, directly after sending start. I love my KSP and have also experienced this.

Both the blackbox and bluebox will only respond to properly formatted MIDI commands via the MIDI jack or USB. DIN sync will not work. You can send an analog clock to the clock in jack. We did address this very issue in both boxes though we do not have the Hapax so it is possible something else is going on there.

I can see on pg 103 of the Hapax manual that there is a setting for Clock + Transport. That is good. Have you tried to sync the Hapax to an external source? What is connected (MIDI) to the input and output of the Hapax? And what are your other clock-based settings? Are you sending a clock all the time or only when you push the start/stop on the Hapax? Do you have the same experience when syncing via TRS and USB? Are you using any MIDI splitter or router between Hapax and our devices? I'm happy to help troubleshoot.

[steeldust]

Hi,

The KSP does send a start command. But it also sends a pause. Our devices do not respond to pause. In the case of the KSP, it is sometimes possible to send pause accidentally, directly after sending start.

Could be, but that does not explain why - when I was using the KSP - the BlackBox ran randomly in half tempo.

https://forum.1010music.com/forum/products/blackbox/support-blackbox/30727-sync-problem-between-keystep-pro-and-blackbox

Both the blackbox and bluebox will only respond to properly formatted MIDI commands via the MIDI jack or USB. DIN sync will not work.

I understand DIN Midi as the 5 Pin Midi cable that belongs to the broad side of the adapter that is supplied along with the BlackBox and BlueBox.

You can send an analog clock to the clock in jack.

Couldn't find any clock in jack at the BlueBox yet.

We did address this very issue in both boxes though we do not have the Hapax so it is possible something else is going on there.

That's what I am trying to find out: What is going on. Btw the Hapax is undoubtedly and by far the best Sequencer on the market and I guess will be for at least quite a while, so you should get one.

Have you tried to sync the Hapax to an external source?

No, because that's not the way I want it. The Hapax is a powerfull Sequencer built to be the center in a large setup. What use would it be to let him oparate in clock slave mode? And what knowledge would result from this related to this very specific problem?

What is connected (MIDI) to the input and output of the Hapax?

A Keystep 37 is connected to the Hapaxes USB host, and various synthesizers are connected to the Hapaxes Midi outs along with the B-Boxes. Except for the B-Boxes, clockwise they all work perfectly fine.

And what are your other clock-based settings? Are you sending a clock all the time or only when you push the start/stop on the Hapax?

I set the Midi outs that are connected with the B-Boxes to CLOCK+TRANSPORT, because I want clock and start/stop. I send the clock only when I push the start/stop. That's default setting.

Do you have the same experience when syncing via TRS and USB?

Haven't tried. I did try USB back in the days when I was using the KSP togehter with the BlackBox. That didn't make any difference at all. So I guess It would't help this time as well.

Are you using any MIDI splitter or router between Hapax and our devices?

Of course. I'm using an ordinary Kenton MIDI Thru 12. I also tried a Midi Thru Box from MIDI Solutions just to make sure. The Hapax is a Midi Sequencer with 32 (!) polyphonic tracks. Wouldn't make much sense to controll only a handful synths with it, Midi Thru Box is essential.

That's what I really don't understand: Both B-Boxes are attached to the Kenton MIDI Thru Box. That means, they get exactly the same clock signal at exactly the same start signal. How is it possible that randomly one of them (and sometimes even both) run with a clock divided by three? That's completely illogic.

I'm happy to help troubleshoot.

I do appreciate that and I'm happy to troublemake As I said earlier, the 1010-Boxes are the only devices in my setup that have problems with midi clock (as slave), and that is not only with the Hapax, but also with the KSP. Would you think it's the Hapaxes and the KSPs fault? I feel that there is some weird programming issue that hopefully can be fixed with an update.

[Steve]

I have offered to help. I get that you believe 100% that the fault is with our devices. It may be. But without thorough testing and your cooperation, there is no way to determine that. Unfortunately, there is not much more I can do for you.

[sirshannon]

I'm not sure how this is the reply to what seems like a rather cooperative post?

[Steve]

I am always happy to help the users willing to cooperate. When you come here to ask for help, you make the decision to either cooperate or split hairs.

[steeldust]

That's ok.

I got a hint in another forum. Actually forcing the Hapax to send clock all the time is the trick! This is in the Hapaxes Sync Output Settings: Clock on stop. Set this from "Send midi clocks only when Hapax is playing" (default) to "Always send midi clocks, even when hapax is stopped".

I have a theory. The KSP is sending clock only when it's playing. The Roland MC 707 on the other hand always sends clock. That's why I got the issue with the KSP and not with the 707. The Hapax fortunately can do both.

Good to know. Maybe other people have the same problem and find this information useful

[sirshannon]

Nice find! I'm going to try this tonight.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people have this problem and have for a while. It's the reason I don't have a recording of the live show I played in October (Hapax, Blackbox, Bluebox, a couple other synths, and a friend on Syntakt).

[sirshannon]

i thought this was a known issue?